When I got the first email from a friend linking me to an article on the Washington Post’s website that was titled “Successful, Black, Lonely”, I said “Uh, no. Not today.” I already knew what it was gonna be about and I had no interest in dealing with the emotions it would stir. I know the drill: I’m Black, I’m pretty, I’m smart, I went to a good school and I do not know that I will ever find love. Been there, done that, trying to make optimism my shield. “I will not read this.”
Such a cute girl, why is she trying to destroy me?
By lunchtime, the article had been sent to me about five more times and it was causing a buzz on the Twitter. At that point, I didn’t have a choice. I read the WaPo’s profile of Helena Andrews with a tightness in my chest. Hers is a story I’ve heard many times, one that actually played a small part in my decision to break out of DC for good. Andrews is an attractive and accomplished journalist with a interesting background and a wall full of fancy diplomas. She rolls with a crew of similarly gifted ladies in DC and can’t none of them seem to find the man they feel they deserve. At only 29, her memoir Bitch Is The New Black has been optioned by Grey’s Anatomy producer Shonda Rhymes (before it was even finished, to boot).
I was surprised at the backlash the piece and Andrews received on Twitter, from men in particular. I honestly do not think that, from what we have seen so far (meaning: the book, nor the movie have been released), the bredren have any room to criticize the young lady yet. Sometimes, outsiders need to learn to step back and let someone else unpack their personal pain from a respectful distance. Unlike many writers (present darling adorable blogger included), Andrews didn’t engage any real criticism of Black men, but instead shed light on the pain she and her crew are managing for the lack of the “right” ones in their lives.
The sisters seemed to fall into two camps. Many expressed feelings of solidarity and shared frustration (I also picked up on a few folks who seemed to resent that Andrews had beat them to the punch with this book). Others seemed to resent the implication that single equals lonely. To speak to the latter, I don’t think it’s so much that Andrews or any of the many hundreds of female writers who have lamented the often painful search for love have decided that all single people live empty lives. But, rather, I see an expression of frustration at the inability to have something one really wants.
The plight of many single, accomplished Black women can be likened to that of a job seeker with an illustrious resume who cannot find work in her field. You have all the right qualifications and yet, the doors aren’t opening to you. It’s like never getting in to med school if you wanted to be a doctor since childhood. If you are a woman who wants a boyfriend or a husband and you cannot find one, that is hard to manage. As with anything one truly wants and flounders in search of. Some women (and men) have romance sitting high atop the list of things they desire most in life. I am one of those women. It’s difficult, because unlike many other pursuits or goals, love is one that is not simply the result of your qualifications.
I personally find it hard to reconcile the fact that my White female and Black male counterparts have a far easier time finding love than I. White women do not outnumber White men in the same way that Black women do ours. Eligible Black bachelors (and even those who should NOT be eligible) essentially have a Black woman buffet to pick and sample from. And the ones most of us want tend to take full advantage of the odds and have the luxury of sampling plenty of goods before settling down with one woman. I believe this is why a lot of sisters get far too attached to “Mr. We Just met” or “Mr. Not Right At All”; we are trying to manage the forced competitiveness with other women or a lack of other suitors or a fear that if this guy doesn’t work out, we’re all alone again.
Andrews article made me feel like good Black girls were a dime a dozen. So many of us are smart, so many of us are pretty, so many of us are doing well for ourselves. Who do I have to be to have a boyfriend? Dating in one’s 20′s or 30′s should not be so heavy, so frightening. I don’t like the weight of that knowing statistically, I’m not likely to be married ever. I want to enjoy this time, sample from a brother buffet of my own and let Mr. Right show himself when he’s supposed to. I do not want to be bitter or salty. I do not want to go out with men I’m not interested in just to say I went on a date. I want to be recognized for my dopeness in the romantic field, not to feel like I’m just one of many.
For the moments of depression and the occasional tears, I do feel that I have managed well to face the end of my mid-twenties with an attitude of optimism about love and romance. No matter how disappointed I feel at times, I have yet to allow myself to believe that I won’t be a married mother with a happy brood in the next decade. Andrews is 29. 30 is considered to be a benchmark age for many pursuits, personal and professional. I do not know that I will have the same optimism at 29 if my romantic life is the same that it is now.
My only issue with Andrews’ book is the title. I understand it to be a play on the Tina Fey joke from last years election Andrews describes herself as a mean girl and bitchiness as the mask she wears to protect herself from hurt. I personally feel that the word bitch is used too frequently for Black women who exhibit any modicum of fortitude and I distance myself from the word as a result (though I, too, am most certainly capable of wearing “the mask” of hardness when needed). I can almost guarantee that much of the criticism surrounding this book will be about calling oneself a mean girl and then being surprised when the love train passes you by. Unless Andrews is just a full out asshole (I didn’t get that from her profile, nor from her Twittering), she may just be encountering the harsh reality of being one of too damn many.
I’m looking forward to a new Black female story being told in Hollywood, though I do dread the glaring eye of others that it brings with. The criticism from Black men, the psuedo empathy from non-Black women. The complaints that “this isn’t ALL Black women” (because all Black movies have to adequately represent all Black people in a positive manner, of course). I think it would be great if the film begins to dismantle the notion that independent, accomplished Black women are in the business of being emasculating and crass. Beneath the mask, there is often a sister who is hurting because she feels that life is denying her one of the things she wanted most. It is my sincerest wish that Andrews and Rhymes capture this image effectively and lovingly.
Single, lonely Black women are not some tragic and desperate monolith. Some of us our victims of our own choices; others are falling short due to the reality of the numbers game. I appreciate that Andrews seems to be saying ‘here is my story: I’m single and I don’t want to be and I’m not sure why I am’. She doesn’t seem to be posing herself as the perfect romantic partner and undoubtedly this very public catharsis will alert her to things she may need to improve upon on a personal level should she wish to find a partner.
The conversations sparked by her work have actually been going on for years and will need to continue if we are to attempt to somehow remedy or improve this situation. Let us engage not in the spirit of gender war, but rather, recovery. We are not the creators of our plight, nor can we be charged completely with remedying it. I won’t say I think ‘bitch’ is the new anything, but I know that when it comes to love, Black is no stranger to disappointment. Hopefully, the Helena Andrews of the world will get the opportunity to experience what they want so badly.
First off, I totally agree with everything Toldja said in this blog, so initally, the only thing I felt like saying in response was, "Amen".
I do however, feel some kind of way about people saying that Black women MUST stop with the "I only want a Black husband" mentality. I may sound spoiled by posing this question but, WHY CAN'T WE HAVE WHAT WE WANT?
I dont see too many other groups of people being told to seek out love from someone they have entirely no interest in? If marriage is supposed to be a LIFETIME partnership, why are we being encouraged to go after a union that will not make us happy?
I have toyed with the thought of stepping outside of my "Black box" when it comes to men. I'm not knocking dating other cultures. it's just that i'm not interested…AT ALL.
But for all those who feel like Black women should be interested, is there some huge number of other ethnicities who are scrambling and searching for us? Because I can count on one hand the amount of white, asian, latino and other men who have approached me. On the other hand, not a week goes by when a brother doesnt flirt, smile, approach or send some other kind of signal (bad intentions or not) to show that he's interested. This is coming from a Black woman who lives in an extremely multicultural and liberal community.
Are other men really checkin' for us in such large numbers that stepping away from Black men is really a viable option? I am curious to know this.
MDiva- I have stated countless times that I am an advocate for marriage. It is your implication that we look to our White counterparts as the model for what to do that I took issue with. I apoligize if that is not what you meant, but it's certainly how it appeared.
SugaHoney- Co and sign. I think that most of the sisters who want that for themselves could find a partner of another race. But that is hardly territory that we should be forced or shamed in to travelling.
First, thanks ST for writing this post and for breaking down the topic as you did. I believe you're really onto something about successful (Black) women feeling let down because they've been able to achieve all of their goals yet still yearn for a romantic relationship.
There are a lot of opinions expressed here and I'll chime in with my own: statistically, Black men are more likely to be married to women with similar educational/career backgrounds. Black men are also, statistically, more likely to marry non-Black women in order to maintain this similarity. I am not saying this because I think "how come every successful brother gotta have a white girl?", but rather there have been studies to document this fact. Black women have used race to trump every other aspect of a potential suitor and, for that, we remain single longer. I'm 37 and I'm gonna hold out for my tall, dark and handsome no matter how long it takes. That's just my opinion. If I die unmarried, so be it: at least I'll have my cats and my diplomas to keep me warm.
To the commenter who wrote "I ask you this ladies. When was the last time you heard any man say "I have a Masters in English Literature, how come these ladies ain't feelin' me?", I respond that men may not talk about their education, but they flaunt cars, watches, shoes, fancy cognac, and numerous other markers of financial success to attract a mate. Financial success is equated with career and education, so you never have to say it. If you, sir, do such flaunting and end up with a bunch of chicken-heads to date and never someone you can take home to your Mama, try talking more and blinging less.
Then again, this discussion isn't about Black men and what they do/don't do to get a woman; it's about Black women and how we feel about the state of our lives. I love myself some Brothahs, and I wouldn't trade them for the world, but y'all can actually sit this one out.
As a black woman from the UK I found this topic very interesting and I don't doubt there are single black women in England who can empathise with the situation being discussed.
Sister T, I read your blog/opinion before reading the article and I understand your position…but having read the article in question I struggle to sympathise with Helena’s situation from her POV – which is odd because I guess you're coming to the same conclusion?
The conversation she had with her friends, (though I take on board that the tone of a conversation can be misconstrued when read and not heard) concerning men and their 'seasonal purpose', was quite off-putting and made it seem as though she viewed men (albeit the ones she wasn’t really interested in for the long-term) as some accessory – almost like a fur coat, that had served its purpose and would no longer be required until the next time temperatures dropped.
I suppose what really had me confounded were her choice of words/what she chose to mention when discussing the suicide of a friend. She says: ‘’She looked like any other successful black woman good clothes, stylish. Ivy League degree, master's…’’, but there is no mention of her friend’s character or personality, or even her passions in life – things that could also make you wonder why she was single and why she chose to end it all. What has been mentioned seems superficial (at least to me) and it does make me wonder if this is how she measures potential mates and what she really considers important in life.
Don’t get me wrong I see nothing wrong with wanting a successful partner, but my definition of success may differ to that of Helena’s.
LMAO @Average Brother's comment:I have a degree is underwater basket weaving from an overpriced college, where is my husband?
I think you and Landis should go on a date! Ok, fine, I'm minding my own business. I digress.
Loved your take on the article ST. It's unfortunate that this is still such an issue for Black Women. I have no shortage of old men(50yrs and up) and Lesbians hitting on me! But eligible single Men, not so much. I too have taken on a much more positive attitude towards dating, and I've actually been on some really great dates lately! If I meet a great guy then wonderful, if not, on to the next one. Instead of leading in the conversation with my personal accomplishments, I'm going in with, Listen, I like to laugh, read, travel, and can make a mean peach cobbler!
At the end of the day, we're all works in progress, and having someone else there to help go through and figure out this thing called life, just makes it that much easier.
P.S. Your book would be on the NY Times Best Sellers list. And I would come to your book signing with Peach Cobbler : )
TLynn said: I'm 37 and I'm gonna hold out for my tall, dark and handsome no matter how long it takes. That's just my opinion. If I die unmarried, so be it: at least I'll have my cats and my diplomas to keep me warm.
And you know what? I'm not mad at you for this because you have made your decision, you know the pros and cons of your decision and you will take them accordingly.
I don't think anyone is trying to "shame" or "push" black women into dating interracially, but the point is this. You've gotta come to grips that this situation that is facing black women isn't gonna change and this has been an ongoing issue for as long as I've been an adult (so that's about 14 years… and I know it's been an issue before that too).
So, one can consider a variety of options if what she's doing is currently not reaping results (dating interracially, dating blue-collar brothers, dating shorter men, lol), whatever… but it is what it is. For me, dating IR professional men is cool, dating blue-collar men of any race is not. Folks can tell me all day long that I'm limiting my options by doing the latter, but I don't care. I made my decision and I'm gonna live and die by it… if many black women want to ride or die by dating black men only, then own it and accept whatever path life takes you as a result. (And hopefully, it's a good one!)
I think all single black women who are dissatisfied with their status should start asking some questions. Do you (general you) want marriage and family or not? Do you want marriage and family PERIOD or do you want it only with a black man? Define what you want and accept that any numerical limitation that you put on your choice (which is absolutely your right to do, of course) is going to possibly also limit your chance of getting what you want.
It is how it is out here in these streets. No use continuing to kvetch about it if we've already made our choice as to what types of relationships we are going to have or aren't going to have.
@Suga:
“Are other men really checkin' for us in such large numbers that stepping away from Black men is really a viable option? I am curious to know this.”
This is really unexplored territory isn’t it? Honestly, it’s impossible to qualify something you’ve refused to try out yet. You don’t know what the reaction and possibilities might be until you tried it.
And be very wary of the circular/self-fulfilling prophecy of telling the Option “When a White man steps to me, he is applying for a job he will not be considered for.” Ok, your choice. But please, don’t be so obviously dishonest to then turn around and say ‘SEE! They’re NOT interested in you sister-girl’. You just told them not to be. So of course they ‘step on by’ you. Heck, what do you expect?
Suga, this is new ground here. People can choose to be afraid of it and cling to the past in the name of “loyalty” if they wish. It’s up to each A/A woman to decide for herself personally how she might handle a very changed landscape of life. Shouldn’t you consider “black community” pressure to do otherwise as a very damaging thing to the Individual/personal life of A/A woman now, attempting to deny her choices in life? When things are already difficult and more options and answers are needed for them, not less?
@Lisa99:
Wow! Just wow! You keep that kind of clear-eyed, honest, and very realistic outlook up you’ll have some people not appreciating it, lol. I wonder (as you probably have) do any number of A/A women understand that they are starting to look rather foolish about this? To see so clearly their personal predicament, make the same decisions, get the same results and then Complain (loudly) about it? You hit it SO right. If she wants to narrow the field, totally her right (and I DO hope she gets what she desires. Even Ms. Toldja, lol), but it looks so, uh, Dumb to then turn around and act like it’s all unfair that their chances just dropped way off the scale. You Made A Choice! Live with it. It isn’t “Unfair” when you could do something else. It’s called Life’s Consequences of your Own Decisions, something we all have to live with.
(con’t. What else, lol?)
Ms. Toldja,
I have to be careful here, because the desire isn’t to insult. But I gotta call you on that comment about “less qualified”. That isn’t what you implied; you were implying I can’t even ask the questions! That my “less qualified” status means I better shut my mouth. Or that the questions themselves must AUTOMATICALLY be thrown out, because, like ‘Who are YOU to ask?! Who are YOU to say ANYTHING?!’
Be very careful with that particular “sword of argument”. Because then you’ll get asked “Who are YOU to say anything about A/A MALES, ‘cause, Girl, you’re like, Not One, never lived THEIR life”. Or “Who are you to comment about White people or White privilege, ‘cause you aren’t one and never lived the pain and anguish of white privilege?” (Uh, there’s a joke in there, so don’t get your unddie’s in a knot on it, ok?). To try to lessen the validity of anybody’s honest questionings by the Very First line of defense being “You got no right to ask”. That line of immediate defense has all the negatives of looking like someone has an indefensible position and won’t admit it. Won’t even talk about it. Won’t allow the discussion even.
As far as “I couldn't tell you about being a White parent of mixed children, for example.” Can I say BS? We all know you got plenty of opinions on that one! And that is totally fine with me! I’m quite sure you and I could have a very good, positive, meaningful discussion about the varied (and confusing!) aspects of a single white man raising biracial/black children all by himself. I’d never automatically delete anything you asked by implying your not in my situation so “You Can’t Ask!” I’m very sure there would be many points of agreement, viewpoints of yours I’d completely agree with. I’m also very sure you could point out a few real dichotomies in both my thinking and practices! Of course they exist! How could they not sometimes in life, especially in my situation, one that straddles some really different ground? So, what’am I to do? Get Mad at you because you can, from an outside perspective, make an honest analysis of something I do/believe in, and see its flaws?! Come on. I try to be an adult male here. Valid criticism is the lifeblood of self-analysis. If I can’t accept an outside look in, then I better seriously question MY stand; what am I afraid of admitting or why do the very questions themselves really upset me so?
@LiteBread I understand your point but I dont think you should assume that just because I say in a blog comment that I'd prefer a Black husband, that automatically makes me unapproachable. I'd also desire a man with a nice job, no kids, trustworthy, faith in God and a good sense of humor, but that doesnt stop the complete opposite from stepping to me on a regular basis. I may not be actively seeking out a non Black mate, but "White men better not step to me!!!" is not oozing from my pores. lol
I actually spent 2009 welcoming the idea of stepping out of my box. It didnt happen though. I'm not walking around mean mugging white mean, rolling my eyes at asian men, sneering at Latino men. Shoot, I smile at everybody. And it's funny because many of the Black men who I try desperately to UN-attract (lol if thats a word) will still attempt to holla. So…hmm, I get your point but i'm not buying it really, unless you're saying that I need to approach them and make myself obviously available.
I just dont see other ethnicities going after Black women in large enough numbers for us as a group to seriously embrace the thought of dating outside of our race. Is it that WE need to go after them? If that is the case, I'm DOOMED lol
Man… I just don't know what to say or if I even should say something… My first comment was quite playful…
suga: "I just dont see other ethnicities going after Black women in large enough numbers for us as a group to seriously embrace the thought of dating outside of our race."
My 1st reaction was: BWHAHAHAHA.
My 2nd reaction: With that logic you can say the same thing about trying to find a "qualified" black man to marry. Isn't most of this about the LACK of successful A/A men available for the choosing? Ummmm…
@suga – on the flip side, if there were VISIBLE masses of other ethnicities trying to get at black women, I'm pretty sure there would be masses of Black women saying/blogging/crying that it's not due to genuine interest, but rather because you all may seem exotic. C'mon…
T. Lynn: "statistically, Black men are more likely to be married to women with similar educational/career backgrounds. Black men are also, statistically, more likely to marry non-Black women in order to maintain this similarity. I am not saying this because I think 'how come every successful brother gotta have a white girl?', but rather there have been studies to document this fact."
So what T. Lynn? According to Statistics, correlation doesn't imply causation. :-/
In reference to Black women feeling like there's not enough incentive to consider dating other races in order to better there chances of finding a mate: @Ms. Soulja, I know you said that the attraction for you isn't there and I'm sure many Black women feel the same as you do. But why isn't there any attraction? Strange question, I know, coming for a Black man… You see, if a Black man is attracted to white women (exclusively or not), people always push the idea that it's due to the brainwashing of media in terms of what's beauty or the residue of times of oppression in some attempt to be like the "White man". But what about the inverse? Can YOU (as in Black women) highlight reasons to why as a group, there may exist reservations on dating/marrying outside of race? If brainwashing a person's preferences is possible, isn't it possible that brainwashing can be an effect of past racial tensions for Black women AS WELL (Sorry Lite Bread, the rules of double standards says you can't ask this question… lol)? Or even an extreme reaction to a perceived brainwashing of the Black males? I say "perceived" not to say that it's not true. I'm giving respect to that fact that "feelings" are just important as logic and numbers when it comes to reality. How about some self analysis here? I mean, it would provide Black men more incite on the workings of Black women in this respect. Can ANYONE (female) take on this challenge? Ready. Set. Go!
@Suga,
I do understand.
An important Clarifier here (so you don’t misunderstand. By accident. What others do on purpose is their biz.). I’m NOT in any way, shape or form taking a position of This Is Easy and that the Whitey-Man is your Savior. LOL! LOL Again! Geez, we’d most definitely never deserve that mantle. It is all about increased odds, wider options, etc. Think of it like hunting for a job when times are tough (wow, sounds familiar, huh?), what do you do? You apply a lot of places. You hunt it down even sometimes. You sure as heck don’t go back to the same one place and apply over and over again, wondering why you ain’t getting’ anywhere. Might even have to work at talking your way in. It is about widening the base as large as possible, that’s all there is to it, no weird thoughts of any kind of “superiority” in 2520 males (and that would be too ugly to even try to contemplate). There are, I’m sure, per capita, just about as many ‘dog’/jerk white males as in any grouping of men. But, on a straight-up numerical basis, even if it’s the same down the line, i.e., 50 % per capita of both A/A and white males would be “Quality”, the Actual Number would then be huge for the white male side, just ‘cause there are lots of us rolling around. It’s about even attempting to pick off ONE (that’s all you need for marriage, one agreeable guy) for yourself.
Ms. Toldja stated: “I personally find it hard to reconcile the fact that my White female and Black male counterparts have a far easier time finding love than I.” Well, DUH. They aren’t cutting out their options. Geez. It ain’t rocket science. They both happen to be open to lots of possibilities. Wow, you think that could have anything to do with it?
(I’m more worried about the shrinkage of “Quality Males” across the board, really. I’m not so thrilled about a great deal of male-mentality, period, anymore.)
Now, I most definitely wasn’t ‘judging’ you Suga. In fact your comments would lead me to believe you’re not a ‘closed option’ person to begin with. What I was trying to get across was how most other men (non-A/A) here might really feel. Ask yourself, “What has he heard about our (A/A women) relationship feelings, and for how long?” Any possibility he’d never guess you’d be open? I know that’s a struggle. But, it has proven to be able to be overcome. I’m old enough (barely) to remember the Fall of Saigon, the collapse into Communism of Southeast Asia and the subsequent large influx of desperate refugees. At that time a number of good ol’ whites didn’t say such nice things (just like us, right, lol), I heard all kind of “gook” comments (thankfully all appalling to my parents). Now look at it. Southeast Asian women have “transformed” into Objects of Beauty, sought after women! (Know the UCLA joke? “What does UCLA stand for? Ugly Caucasians Living With Asians” Brrrrrwwwwww). See? It CAN change. If both parties open up to it. And learning to drop the “I just ain’t attracted to such-and-such” for nonsensical reasons. And guess what? It did change Maybe not for every single person (that, unfortunately, never happens), but a large enough percentage that we notice it.
I appreciate your tactfulness about the subject “Suga”.
Jurnell, I'll take on your challenge. I've already come up with this argument before.
First, I agree with you that it's inherently illogical that black women (as a group) are not attracted to men of other races. Hear me out y'all… I'm not saying that black women can't prefer black men. Actually, I expect it. People are first and foremost drawn to people who look like them and share the same culture.
Okay, but after that, men and women are wired to hook up and reproduce. Period. Men are attracted to women, and women are attracted to men. There is no gene/computer chip, etc. that prevents people from being attracted to those who are different from them. If that was the case, nobody on this Earth would exist because folks from different cultures, races, nations, etc., have been gettin' it on since Biblical times and creating new people and new nations every day.
Also, how is it possible that black men do not have the same staunch stance on not dating interracially as black women? Even when black men strongly prefer black women and say they only see themselves marrying black women, I ain't NEVA heard a black man saying that he would be single for life unless he found a black woman, or said that he was absolutely NOT attracted to any woman of any other race but black.
So the fact that American black women are behaving differently than well, every other group of women in the entire world, tells me that there's a lot more going on.
It's conditioning people. It's about black women trying to protect themselves from being hurt. It's about black women feeling a heavier burden to "continue" the black race. I think most black women, despite all of the cutesy "diva" and "-licious" names that they might put at the end of their online screen names or whatever, have subconsciously bought into the idea that black women are at the absolute bottom of the beauty totem pole in our society. Now, it's easy to feel like that when the images promoted as beautiful are the farthest from your own, but black women really internalize that isht to a level they don't even realize.
But AT LEAST, they know that black men love them. They can be on the bottom of the totem pole as long as they have the brothas lifting them up… oh but wait… now that's not an automatic either…
So, the average black woman is probably thinking that if a BLACK man who shares her features doesn't want her, then why in the hell would Mr. White Man want her when he can get all of the Elin Nordegrens he can handle? If he can get silky straight blonde hair, fair skin, etc. (or even the more exotic Mediterranean variety), then why would he willingly go to the so-called bottom of the totem pole to get a kinky-haired, darker-skinned, wide-nosed black woman?
So, it's easier to just focus on the devil you know (black men) than take your chances with the devil you don't know (non-black men). Or, it's easy to strike first and shout to white men through a megaphone how much you don't want them, so they can't do it to you first.
I say all this because I have seen time and time again, the most militant, "I'm not attracted to white boys," black woman suddenly start loving the taste of vanilla when one of them steps to her in a real legitimate way. There are some PATIENT white men out there who will almost drag a black woman kicking and screaming into a relationship because she simply can't believe that he would choose HER over his prized white woman. I probably would have been moved on, but I guess those dudes really loved those women cause they put up with a WHOLE lot of resistance from HER to be with a black woman.
Anyway, that's my theory… ya'll can discuss now!
@Suga:
Oh, I see now where I made my mistake. I used “you” in my response earlier. You felt it was Personally “you”. Sorry about that. I meant the term in a general A/A woman sense – “you haven’t tried so you don’t really know yet.”, as a group.
My Bad.
Oh, I forgot the biggie, of course… the whole rape/slavery thing. Black women seem to be heavily focused on the idea that white and other men (but especially white) only want them for sex.
Hey, some do… but seeing that a whole lot of black men are using black women for sex as well, I find the concern about being "used for sex," rather laughable… especially when you've got some 19-year-old woman from NYC who's never even set foot in the South talking about slave-rape mess and what her grandmothers supposedly went through, blah blah blah.
But… it seems like black men get used for sex quite a bit by women of other races, and somehow, the history of black men being lynched doesn't seem to stop them from playing Mandingo warrior with Becky… again, it's all conditioning people…
@Jurnell Cochren! Such valid questions! (And the double-standard comment, lol!)
Isn’t it more a case of you are attracted to what your Heart is open to? You say you don’t like ‘such and such’ for all kinds of extraneous reasons, don’t plan on yourself finding them attractive then, right? Make sense? But do ask yourself about the honesty of those “reasons”, please.
Mr. Cochren? Can I ask a very difficult question then? Does it ever bother you that, as you stated it, there are all these big, hairy, social/political reasons why any A/A man might be with a white woman? I mean, doesn’t it end up de-humanizing them as individuals? Like it is totally IMPOSSIBLE that he just happened to actually like her or something? That because his heart was open to it as a human (and he doesn’t block his options foolishly), they just fell in love, kinda like Humans do sometimes? Does it ever get under your skin there has to be all these “Other” reasons always why?
Your comment about the reverse was damn funny! All the crazy reasons a white male might find attraction in an A/A woman: “He just wants Sex” (uh, what GUY doesn’t want sex ladies, lol), weird “Master/Slave” ideas, “Wanta-be a “N”” non-sense.
And your point is so well understood (by me), that if you’re going to argue the case it IS that ‘black men fall for white women for blah blah blah reasons’ (other than he loved her, of course), then Absolutely the same could be argued in inverse. Black women then have all these “other reasons” that are the “real” difficulty with finding attraction in white males.
But then I don’t like to think of people in ugly little socio/political boxes.
Going back a little…
@Suga: You said… But for all those who feel like Black women should be interested, is there some huge number of other ethnicities who are scrambling and searching for us? Because I can count on one hand the amount of white, asian, latino and other men who have approached me. On the other hand, not a week goes by when a brother doesnt flirt, smile, approach or send some other kind of signal (bad intentions or not) to show that he's interested. This is coming from a Black woman who lives in an extremely multicultural and liberal community.
Are other men really checkin' for us in such large numbers that stepping away from Black men is really a viable option? I am curious to know this.
My question for you would be this. Why does there have to be a large number of non-black men checking for black women for BW to consider dating interracially, in addition to continuing to date black men? Isn't the point to just find ONE man to be with? So whether 100 or 1 zillion non-black dudes are willing to step to me, in the end, that's more than ZERO. And I'm only going to pick one anyway, so to me, it's irrelevant whether or not large numbers of non-black men are checking for black women.
Anyway, as someone said before, there are more non-black men in the US than black women, period. So even if a minority of those non-black men were interested in black women, that would be enough for every black woman open to IR dating to have a partner.
If I meet 10 white men and only three are interested, why focus on the seven who are not? Why not focus on the three, in addition and the black men who are interested?
All options are viable for black women if black women want them to be. No option lacks viability.
@Litebread: I've always been quite the rational one… I figure that if I want something, I need to focus on getting it!
@lisa99 – Yes! I agree with you 99.7% of what you said! Allow me to be the catalyst for finally calling this truth out for what it is…
I agree that it "again, it's all conditioning." I dare say that the "conditioning" that we used so freely doesn't have an implied meaning. I dare say the term "conditioning" is really a wrapper for multiple sources of influences made on the human psyche (yes, blacks and whites and greens and reds are human first and foremost). People usually just chalk it up to something involving socio-economic divisions created by slavery. I think to do that is INTELLECTUALLY LAZY. YEAH I SAID IT! Let's dive deeper, let's go harder (pause). lol
Those conventional 'agreed' upon "conditioning" tactics aren't all there is in this context. Some of it has something to do with simply how women feel. OK ok… Before you all blow a gasket, let me restate: It's amplified by the general approach women have towards the world. You see, if a woman FEELS something bothers her, regardless of the facts about events and what a man says, her feelings still have to be addressed. The actions, words, thoughts, and decisions are based on the facts AND feelings. Those feelings are important even if they contradict other feelings or the facts. Let's do a little abstraction+application here shall we…
Let's start from what lisa99 said: "black women really internalize that isht to a level they don't even realize." While I can't comment on what women internalize, for obvious reasons, I bet that if there was a building with a sign that said: "ONLY BEAUTIFUL LADIES ALLOWED" and there was a line of women all with one or two common features and no one is being turned away, I'm sure any group of black women that past by would assume that the features of the women in the line are what defines the word BEAUTIFUL written on the sign. Likewise if I stood in a crowd of women and said that everyone is beautiful, most of you will look around to find the PHYSICAL aspects in which most of you have in common, then apply the word to those people having those features… the most common features +/- the features you notice due to personal preferences or insecurities.
Not minimizing anything… but just saying, its a factor… So the question becomes: Where is the line drawn b/t external and internal "conditioning"? Can't some thing make you (women) FEEL like someone is trying to condition you? Does that really mean its the intent? Does the intent even matter?
lisa99, I asked the question mainly because many people are throwing that solution out there and the last thing all Black women need to do is go chasing after population of people who aren't really interested in us. It was really just a question. Not a declaration. Black women need to be open to other men. Well, are other men interested? Thats all I'm wondering.
To be honest, if I was approached by a non-Black man or even looked at or flirted with or given ANY type of sign that they were interested, the question wouldnt have been asked.
Suga,
I understand what you mean. I simply believe in promoting the option of interracial dating because I do think that some black women are closed off to it even if they are approached.
I have never believed in chasing men, and I don't think anyone here believes that black women should chase down non-black men. But if they approach and seem cool? Then yeah, go for it!
That's all I'm sayin'. Plus, I still say that it doesn't matter whether or not large portions of the population of non-black men are interested in black women… the only ones that matter are the ones who do show interest and those men will make themselves known.
Lite Bread: "Can I ask a very difficult question then? Does it ever bother you that, as you stated it, there are all these big, hairy, social/political reasons why any A/A man might be with a white woman?"
@Lite Bread – Personally, I'm not "bothered" since I don't give a crap about the implied understanding of who I should be dating/fucking/marrying. I don't listen to people. I'm a King; thus, I do what I want. The parts that bother me is that these so called progressives aren't progressive at all. Here's a little story to make all this easier to digest:
Story #1: An older white man has a daughter and has a black family as neighbors. In the black family there's a boy the same age as the white man's daughter. They are both 17. The boy and girl are friends and like each other. They want to go to the prom together. The white father says to the black boy: "I like you son. You can be her friend but you're not going with my daughter to the prom. You're suppose to be with your own kind."
Story 2: Two A/A adults, a mother and a son. The black woman says to the black man: "Don't bring home a white girl to me. As a black man, you're supposed to be with you own kind."
The crux of this is that both stories are examples of racism. The same applies of we vary story #2 if we replace the mother with some black woman that's not related to the black guy. A black person saying that blacks should only really be with blacks is just as bad as a white person saying it. The difference is the the racism is self-imposed. People are conditioned to like anything ONLY if they allow themselves to be. That means having a distinct understanding of WHY you like something. It's like a child wanting a toy just because the TV told him that we would like it. We have to pay attention to not only our actions and words but also our motivations! The true "conditioning" we've undergone was to be racist against our own kind. "Masta isn't around to hate us anymore, so we's got to hate ourselves." Slavery was a form of oppression right? And post-slavery there was oppression of a non-physical form right? So why do was need to tell each other who we associate with based on our own skin color? Why should our values and feelings for other be bound by our skin color. We bound ourselves… I can speculate all day about why the concept of "racial loyalty" in the context of finding a mate even exists. Maybe it subconsciously provides some sort of security that not "mixing" with other races with keep up from loosing our identity. This wondrous (and lost) identity that completely defines the "Black experience." Clearly, because all I am is a collage of post-slavery "conditioning", hip-hop and our civil rights. And not the even the VALUES of the civil rights movement, just the rights themselves. :-/
Assuming every person that choosing something not connected to black culture is brainwashed, like saying all women who paint their nails must be strippers. I guess we don't allow ourselves to have the concept of preferences. And don't you dare look upon the world with post-racial eyes! For the your fellow skin pigment sharing peers will say that you're brainwashed! Like you don't see the past… Look, my eyes may be brown, but that's not all I see in this world. I like all women. And what I learned women are extremely competitive with EACH OTHER. So it could all just end up being some thing pertaining to just another group of women they FEEL in competition with… I don't know… I don't care either…
All I got to say is that MLK didn't go through all that trouble just so we could tell each other who of certain skin colors we can't date/marry. Those stigmas are stupid… get over it…
"You're the slave and the master; Whatcha lookin' for? you're the question and the answer." – Nas, N.I.G.G.E.R.
@Jurnell Cochren:
I’m just getting it ALL wrong tonight! It’s the same thing I did to Suga. I misused the term “you” in that opening paragraph.
“Isn’t it more a case of you are attracted to what your Heart is open to? You say you don’t like ‘such and such’ for all kinds of extraneous reasons, don’t plan on yourself finding them attractive then, right? Make sense? But do ask yourself about the honesty of those “reasons”, please.”
That was NOT personal. In fact it is intended to be very, very general. As in: “For each reader” – “you”. Poor use of the words “you”, “yourself”, etc. I know.
And thanks for not getting mad about it. It certainly sounded bad when I re-read it! Sorry man!
Lisa99?
100%!
You give me hope that there will be plenty of A/A women who will find their way out of this mess.
@Lite Bread – ummmm? What? I thought you asked me a question about being bothered me about stigmas to interracial dating… Maybe I misread. In any case, I said what thought what needed to be said. Admittedly, I did get kinda heated during the last part. Everything I said was directed towards my people and my thoughts about my people. You just got to witness since you asked the question.
More importantly, I think we put this post in an entirely different direction than what the author wanted. She probably hates up now… lol
@ST I apologize. Can I get a re-do?
@ Jurnell Cockhren,
Yes, you got it right. I did ask a specific question.
I was only making reference to the first paragraph, which was much more general in nature.
Thanks for answering, by the way.
Ms. Toldja? I too owe you a great big, wet and sloppy I’m Sorry, for contributing to getting “Off Topic” on this post of yours. Wasn’t trying to purposely throw it off track. Got a ‘stream of consciousness’ thing going and it got away, lol.
Further, if anything I said unduly offended or upset, please accept my humble Apology.
I'm starting to wonder; If every hardship in a person's life seems to come back around to racially driven problems and solutions, doesn't that make the complexities of life far too simple? If we'd spend less time examining every so-called color line and invested more time upon the necessity of examining ourSELVES, our spirits, and our actions how great we could be. I get goosebumps thinking of the infinite dreams that we could see come into fruition if we'd stop pointing fingers, dictating and magnifying the problems, and just BE the solution instead.
The common denominator to every one of your problems is you, so I think it's a tragedy to keep examining solely the detriment of racial divide, while neglecting to acknowledge and resolve your personal dilemmas…which can't possibly ALWAYS have to do with race. Let's say that somehow every problem, or dream deffered was actually related to race…in an imaginary world – what then? Do we spend our whole lives crying about it, or BEcoming the men and women that defy the odds against us?
I attempted to read the comments, and some are very valid and thought provoking but here is the real deal. I am Biracial, and I lived and breathed the Black and White experience all my life. I am not saying this is the discussion at hand but the bottom line is this. It does come down to race and it does come down to preference. It is no secret that alot of Black men are behind bars, holding it down in lock down. It is no secret that alot of Black men are dating interacially, you do the math – it doesn’t add up. Now, yes, there are Black women dating interracially as well but I still believe a Black men are more apt to date across the interracial lines then a Caucasion/Asian/Hispanic and etc man.
It does appear that us, Black women are just not in these days when it comes to Black men. Here is the rub, I guess I could date or even marry interacially but I won’t, you want to know why? Glad you asked, here’s why because I do not believe cultural differences can ever be on an even kill. Gender differences and the fundamental work of keeping a marriage together seems daunting to me in an interracial setting. I reiterate, too many cultural differences-period!
Also in simple terms, I love Black men. I understand them, I feel them, I support them, I stick up for them when people want to label them shiftless, sorry @– Ni–as and babies daddies. I appreciate your swag, your style, your intelligence, your love is unparallel to any other. And yes it hurts me when I see on a DAILY basis, leaving us, stepping out on us, not acknowleding us when we walk by with those beautiful teeth and striking smile because your with her. I get you, I would love you to get us back.
You can your Kim Kardashian’s, Heidi Klum’s, Elin’s and you can cool off your temperature with your Yellow fever. Go ahead and get a cavity with your sweet tooth of pole dancers and strippers, video vixen and sex tape women but get this, not one,not anyone will understand you like a Black women do. Like I said, we get you, you need to get us back.
It’s sad but true and it is no stereotype that when it comes to a successful black male most of them look to white women or non black women to share their lives with. We aren’t good enough to be by their sides and often if we were we would be light skinned. I think that black women are giving black men too much attention. They know that they are wanted. We need to make them feel the other way around by paying more attention to other ethnicities. They aren’t the only men on the planet you know. We need to venture out and date other people and we need to find out why black men are venturing out to other women and try to work on that problem as well. We as a culture in my opinion need alot of help and healing with ourselves and first of all we don’t need these other people to help us with it. We need to come together and talk about our issues with each other and help each other. We need to start leaving these other people out. They do us the same way.
I was just reading the article in the March 2010 Essence magazine titled “On Her Mind”, and I have to say that I was a little disappointed. Now just to be fair, I’ll let it be known that I am a “black man” and I am married to a “Hispanic woman”. This isn’t my reasoning for being disappointed though. I was disappointed because through most of the article, you made comments as if you were speaking on behalf of all “black women”. Please correct me if I am wrong. But if that was in fact what you were doing then I feel that is wrong. If you have issues with finding a black man that you feel meets your standards, that doesn’t necessarily mean that all black women have those same issues. Now I can only speak for myself. I always wanted to marry a woman of a different race, because I found it amazing to meet people with many different ethnic backgrounds, and I wanted my children to be like that. When I was younger, I was made fun of by my own race for being dark. Black girls that I found interest in, wouldn’t give me the time of day because I was so dark. The successful, intelligent, and beautiful black women that “I” found interest in, only cared about how much money I had, and if I would be good in bed. Now seeing as how I wasn’t born rich, because of the things I lacked and the dark shade of skin I had, I was never able to date any of the black women I took interest in, or any other black woman. Does this mean that all black women look at black men that way? No. Not at all. That just means the black women that “I” have come into contact with look at black men that way. But being degraded by a few women of my race does not give me the right to place them into a category, and complain about them because I couldn’t find one that suited me. Now to defend my reasoning for marrying my “Hispanic wife”, first of all, I Love her. This woman accepted my dark skin, she accepted me when I didn’t have all the money I have now. She saw past all the things that had been used to put me down and helped use them to build me up. Now there’s nothing wrong for standing up for your race, but Dr. King preached “equality for all”, and it seems to me like you thought he meant only for all “Black People”. I personally, as a black man, don’t see color on anyone. I see the person they are, and that’s what helped me find a wife. Maybe if you look at men for who they are, instead of trying to find the millionaire black man that you seem to be so upset with for being in interracial relationships, you’ll find someone good. You seem to be a very intelligent woman, from what I read in your article. So most this stuff I said, I sure you already know.
Kris- I’m rarely compelled to respond to stuff like this, but I don’t recall it saying anywhere in my Black People Handbook that I was required to follow the teachings of Dr. King to the letter. If you can’t interpret what you read well enough to understand that I was not speaking for all Black women, then “this” is probably “not” the “site” for “you”.
Also, it’s kind of ironic that you mention that you had issues with Black women growing up, married a non-Black woman but want to make sure we know it’s not because you had issues with us. Um, okay…
It’s so ignorant and offbase for you to assume that all Black women who oppose interracial dating are looking for “millionaires”. It sounds to me like you have internalized some nasty stereotypes about sisters.
suga asked: Are other men really checkin’ for us in such large numbers that stepping away from Black men is really a viable option?
in a word, NO
@ Kris
How are you going to say in one breath that the black women you wanted didnt want you because of your complexion…and then in the next breath say that you’ve ALWAYS wanted to marry someone of a different race?! That doesn’t make sense. You can appreciate other cultures without wanting to assimilate yourself into one. I love Spain. I love the culture. That doesn’t mean I want to pack up, move to Spain, and marry a Spanish man. It sounds like you have some sort of internal issues within yourself.
I believe that love is blind, but its not where you go and look for love. I don’t have a problem with people who find love wherever, but I’m just sick of Black men using excuses for dating or in your case, marrying another race. Do it because you love the person, not because “I was picked on for being dark skinned so I wanna make light babies who dont have to go thru the same things I went thru” or “black women are golddiggers” because that’s basically what you are saying. I do notice that the majority of the Black men where I am who date interracially are very dark skinned and I apologize you endured some complexion complex growing up, but that’s a self love/hate issue. You are a grown man and should have embraced your complexion a long time ago and loved it.